(Beaven)
Welcome to episode 97 of the 3D Parent Podcast. Today, I'm joined by a special guest, Cai Graham, to talk about helping your children with their fears and phobias. Before we dive in, I'm going to read you a bit about my guest today. International speaker, best selling author and podcaster. Cai Graham is a family anxiety support specialist focusing on supporting teens and young adults. It is her mission to build a mentally healthier and happier generation of young people using her background as master practitioner and coaching and NLP and timeline therapy together with her experience with Childline, the UK's leading child counseling
charity Cai empowers her clients with the tools they need to gain control over their thoughts and emotions so that they may live happier, more confident lives. Cai states , "with a deep understanding of the unique struggles faced by teens and young adults. I offer expertise in various areas related to adolescent anxiety.
From understanding and managing anxiety to building resilience and promoting self care. I am equipped to address a range of topics that resonate with both teens and those who support them." Welcome to the podcast, Cai!
(Cai)
Beaven, what a treat. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm thrilled to be here.
(Beaven)
Oh, we are thrilled to have you. So today, as I stated, the focus is going to be on making sense of fears and phobias in our kids and how parents can help kids overcome them. I am no stranger to having children with fears and phobias, so I am really excited about what you're going to share with us. For my kids, it has been bees, throwing up, swimming, riding bikes, the dark, you name it.
So I'm really interested in exploring and gaining more insight into how and why fears and phobias develop and what we as families can do. So dive in Cai first. Tell us a little bit about your story and how you came to do the work that you do.
(Cai)
Wow, I'm a bit of a chameleon. I started off did the school university bit and plunged straight into, IT at the right put in my twenties and constantly had the fear of imposter syndrome. Will they, you know, will they rumble me? Will they realize that I'm absolute rubbish and all that sort of stuff?
And thankfully , I moved away from the corporate world altogether, having had a fairly mediocre boss and I became a stay at home mum for my thirties. And then got to the stage where I thought, surely there's more to life than the school run. I've got a brain up here and I'm not using it.
And so I became a wedding and portrait photographer. Go figure. And, after that, in my fifties, my dad got terminal cancer. So I spent sort of the short period we had with him. So I sort of hung up my camera for a while and tried to get back into it and couldn't. So I, retrained, I got a coach myself who I sort of needed to get me going again.
And he was great and he said, right, let's get back to the photography and I went, let's not don't want to do this. I want to be a life coach for women. So I started helping women. And at the same time, I was working with Childline, which, as you said, is the UK's leading child counseling service, where I was sort of online chat and phone kids from the age of four to nineteen.
And what started happening that the mums came to me and said, listen, I know I need help. I know I need help, but will you help my child out? Will you help my child out? So the business hat went on and I suddenly realized, hello, there seems to be a gap in the market here for specifically teens. And cause I think as parents
We're not too bad at navigating the younger age group. And I think that's because we feel more willing to share what's going on, you know, well, I can't cope with the terrible twos. What have you done? Oh yes. I've got a naughty step. Don't worry about that. But when our kids get older and when the problems get meatier, and a bit more personal, I think we feel as parents, there's that reluctance to A, admit I'm a rubbish parent and I've got all the guilt going on here because surely I should have worked this out by now, to B, my kid's a really good kid and if I share what's going on, someone will judge them and think that they're bad.
And so for parents, it's very isolating with teenagers because we feel that we should know what we're doing and invariably we don't. And so I'm helping, especially, specifically childhood and adolescent anxiety. I am helping parents and the kids sort out the troubles that they're going through. , I've been still am a mom of, I've been in the trenches of parenthood for 30 years.
So I know what's going on. I have so both kids still at 28 and 30 need my support just in a different way. And so I know what it's like when you're that mum sitting at the kitchen table with your coffee going, Where did I go wrong? Or what on earth do I do? Or how do I speak to my kids? Been there, done that and got the t shirt bedding.
So yeah,
(Beaven)
So relatable, right?
(Cai)
yeah,
(Beaven)
Right. Well yeah it's always I think, helpful for people to understand that you understand too. You've been in the trenches too. You're still there too, even with adult children. You know, it's so helpful. It makes you feel like, okay, it's okay that I'm struggling with this too. Right.
(Cai)
I think those are the people that say that they're not struggling, are sort of slightly more disassociated from the situation and leave their kids up to whatever they're doing. Or, yeah, I think or don't care as much. And there are some parents, you know, no judgment, fine if you choose not to get involved in your child's life, that's great.
I think for those people that are listening to podcast, you are in, you're not in that bracket. You are clearly wanting to know something and learn something and find out ways of making life better. That's not to say it's always bad. But we can always get nudged in a better direction.
And I think that's the great thing is, is especially by these podcasts, there's no finger pointing, there's no judgment. It's just, I've been there, try this or, you know, something else might help. And I think we're all in this together, really. Yes,
(Beaven)
And there's no doubt that everybody is well aware about the topic specifically that we're speaking about anxiety, fears, phobias. If you have a child who's struggling with any of these things, you're looking for answers, you're struggling, you're trying to see how can I help my child because it can have such an incredible impact on the entire family system.
So let's start diving in and help us understand a little bit about fears and phobias. What are they, where they come from? Are they just another form of anxiety or something else?
(Cai)
They are, they're related, but they're different. Fears are, they're a natural response, to a perceived threat. unconscious mind is permanently, on high alert, looking for dangers. Now, in the olden days, it looked for saber toothed tigers, and that's absolutely fine, and it's kept safe from that.
and happening now is that the unconscious mind is still, for many people who have anxiety, it's not switching off. It's not sort of saying, all right, okay, I can relax now, you know, I'm in my classroom. There's no sort of saber toothed tigers here. What they're doing is, but there might just be something, so it's got its knickers in a twist.
And so that's sort of generalized anxiety where there's on the fight or flight or just sort of. permanently on the edge of their seat or the mind still going, what is that, you know, just on the lookout for, for a perceived threat. A phobia is, it is an anxiety disorder, but it's to the other extreme.
It is totally irrational. It's about something specific about specific situations or activities, and it is totally disproportionate to the actual threat. Let's take spiders, for example, some people absolutely flip out because there's a massive spider,
And there is that irrational. Fear about it. So yes, they're the same because the mind is sort of going the perceived threat perceived threat, you know, but the general anxiety is sort of a bit more bubbling under the surface and it's there the whole time whereas the phobia. a bit like when you sort of said with the bees I was going to say irrational.
It's not irrational if you know you're allergic to bees, because you do need to be on slightly more heightened alert, but it's the sobbing and the breaking down and interfering, interrupting daily life. Having said that, general anxiety can also do that,
(Beaven)
There's a bit of overlap there between
(Cai)
They so can overlap. But it's basically the intensity and the duration, which is, slightly different. I hope that makes sense.
(Beaven)
Right. It's like the fears and phobias piece, like the spiders, the bees, it's not going kind of constantly below the surface. It will kind of come up just this weekend. We had a sunny day and my youngest who has this really intense phobia around bees. She's like, it's a sunny day. I hate sunny days. I'm like, Oh, why, why that's on you?
Because bees will come out. You know, it was like, I don't want to go outside. It's a sunny day. I'm like, well, it's also 40 degrees outside and very cold. Think you're okay on the bees. But I'm like, Oh, there it is again. There it is again. That lingering fear and phobia. She associates sun, warm weather, summer bees.
I don't want to go outside.
(Cai)
Yes, which is interfering with daily life. But she's not likely to worry about it if it's a snowy day and, you know, there is the sort of delineation between phobias and anxieties as a whole.
(Beaven)
Absolutely. So how do they develop? I mean, you kind of gave us a little bit of a sense of the fact that it's tied somewhat to this generalized anxiety, the idea of the overreaction, like. Based on our subconscious brain, but is there something else to how fears and phobias develop that's a bit different, or is it unknown,
(Cai)
There are many different things, that can cause, I mean, Here's an irrational fear. I had an irrational fear for a very long time until I did something about it. Actually, it was a phobia, of swimming in deep water. I was a water baby. I was In the swimming team. And I loved swimming until I watched Jaws and I kid you not, and I could just about cope with the swimming pool, just, but swimming out of my depths in the sea?
Absolutely not. Ever since I watched Jaws. And that triggered something in my brain. So, you know that was an environmental factor. , it's something just sort of triggered in my head that sort of said, it's dangerous out there.The. unconscious mind just went, uh oh, you know, everything started firing.
The reptilian brain just went out of the window. And it just sort of said, Unsafe. Unsafe. And up until, and I think that started probably when I was about 14. And it went on till I was about 44. And then it was enough because when we were going on holiday, the kids would say, well, let's go on a Ringo ride or a banana boat or whatever it was.
And I'm like, Oh no, don't you go. How exciting. I love to stand on the side, and watch you. my husband is a brilliant water skier. Would I try it? Would I? Heck. Absolutely not, because I had that irrational fear that I was going to be eaten by a great white shark on Lake Windermere in Scotland.
Go figure. But, you know, and so that is irrational. So there are things that can trigger it. You mentioned the dark. All we need here is maybe something a bit scary for maybe a child's going to sleep and a dog barks, or they're going to sleep and they sort I also remember my babysitter making me watch a Dracula film when, because she didn't want to watch it on her own because it was so scary, and I couldn't watch that, and so my mind associated the dark with bad things.
Some kids grow out of it, that's fine, , you can sort of talk and reason and they manage to work it out in their own head, but sometimes, they don't grow out of it and it's important to acknowledge we need to validate fears, maybe we'll come to that.
in a minute. So it is developmental. It could be, you know, it's a sort of separation anxiety. When you're talking about the dark, you know, they might have been in the cot next to the parents. And suddenly everything is just bigger and, bit more scary.
there are other instances, genetic, predisposition. Some of us are. genetically more prone to have anxieties and phobias. So that also shouldn't be dismissed. We might sort of find that it, that's not the same as mom's terrified of spiders and daughter, you know, sort of learns the same behavior.
That's very different. But, genetically, some of us are a bit more sensitive than others. And so, as parents, we need to acknowledge that. It can be a phase, we can't grow out of it, but if it shows signs of continuing, I think we need to take it seriously.
(Beaven)
Sure. I sometimes, get asked about this and, my specialty is not anxiety particularly, but it is certainly something that comes up quite a bit. So it's a place I've actually recorded a few episodes. If you're listening, episode number 93 and number 50, are two where I talked about, but more generalized anxiety.
But sometimes when parents are asking me about. The fears, the phobias, the dark and all that. I sometimes help parents understand that there may be just like you spoke about something else going on that is like the separation anxiety or maybe generalized anxiety or something, a more sensitive nature. And it's almost like the brain is trying to make sense of that feeling by kind of point towards something that seems rational in a way like, Oh, it's, it's this, it's that when really it might just be their brain trying to make sense of a feeling of discomfort.
That comes along with anxiety. know, And
saying, Oh, it's this thing.
(Cai)
Sometimes those feelings we misinterpret them. It depends how old the child is. But sometimes a child doesn't have the emotional dialogue, , or was going to say intelligence, but that sort of sounds insulting. But, they don't have the words to put to what's going on.
And so what happens is we get that physical feeling , and immediately they're on the back foot and they're going, I felt something, what's that, what's that, where does it come from, why is it happening, and then the mind starts going, is it this, well I'm lying in bed and it's all dark and there is a monster under the bed, and it could be something very different.
It could be excitement. It could be love. It could be hunger. Yes, it could be anxiety, but what happens is that physical butterflies in the stomach. And so we immediately jumped to, Oh my gosh, this is bad. I remember when I first started public speaking and it was, Oh, right.
Okay. This is too much. This is, quite anxiety inducing and someone turned around and said, just tell yourself that you're excited about this. And I went, are you having a laugh? And it was no, hang on a minute. Okay. Yes. Gosh, this is. This is exciting. I've never done this before.
Let's have a think about it. I'm really looking forward to this. And, and the feelings in my body started changing. So my head was sort of going, Oh, okay. This isn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Now everything's calming down a bit. So we misinterpret signals that we're getting physically, from our body.
You know, as I said, that butterfly in the tummy, this erasing of the heart, we automatically think it's something bad and it doesn't necessarily have to be something like that.
(Beaven)
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So we've been kind of using the terms fears and phobias a bit interchangeably. Is there a way to kind of overlapping, how are fears and phobias different or are they not different?
(Cai)
They are, they are similar. There's a different in the duration and the intensity. General anxiety sort of goes on for longer. Phobias are sort of short, sharp, well, there might be, and let's, it's a summer day and someone keeps on saying, will you come outside?
And it was no way, Jose. that sort of keeps on going, but I think it's, it's also. how much of an impact it's having on daily life. Phobia is a much more short treatment really. I don't want to say that they're that different. So they should be dismissed because I think when our, when our kids feel that we're doing, you'll be fine, you'll be fine.
It's just to be look how tiny it is, or it's only a spider. I think when we start belittling feelings, then Our kids learn to be slightly more secretive about it. They learn to be sort of slightly more, they feel a bit guilty or silly. And I, think the thing is, is what we want to do is to keep airing what's going on.
Keep talking about it. Have that open communication so that, that they can work out in their own brain. Do you know what, this actually is a bit irrational or this actually now I'm talking about it. with a bit more sort of clarity, this doesn't actually make sense. Because it is irrational, but when our mind latches onto something like that, it feels very, very real.
So it's unfair to you know, sort of, no, no, you'll be fine., I mentioned the physical symptoms, anxiety is much more. We feel the physical, the physicality of on a rolling boil for a bit longer. That's not to say when someone goes, watch out, there's a bee, immediately we go into fight or flight.
So they are very, very similar. And the lines do sort of blur sort of quite a bit. I think with generalized anxiety, what I would look for is something that's progressing along. , that sort of keeps on coming back in that, is there a change of behavior, you know, are your kids, it's really hard because I was going to say, are your kids avoiding certain situations, like not wanting to go to school, like not wanting to see their friends, but then your daughter is avoiding wanting to go outside because of bees.
It's just being aware that one is more impactful on the short term, whereas anxiety we need to sort of look at. physical symptoms of anxiety sort of don't really have any medical cause behind them. So if there's the hyperventilating or the stomach cramps or the headaches or all those things that go with it, that's sort of the avoidance of the body saying you've got to get out of here.
I'm going to give you some excuses so you don't have to go to school or you don't have to see your friends or something like that. So I think that the lines are so blurred. My personal view is if your child is having a horrid time, if your child is struggling, then you need to down tools and just give them your undivided attention and going, right, how do we make this work?
And yes, It's open communication. Yes, it's making them feel heard. Yes, it's helping them understand and put words to what's going on. Because a lot of the time, they feel a bit guilty, a bit silly. And it's, it's validating is no, no, no, I understand that. And I don't know whether or not, did your daughter get stung by a bee?
Or is she allergic to bees? Was there a trigger to this?
(Beaven)
You know, I can't quite 100 percent recall if she's ever been stung by a bee. She certainly has witnessed people being stung by bees before. She has a great, a big, big phobia around needles, shots, vaccinations. So I think, you know, she's
Lumping it into kind of the same category, just like I don't want to feel pain and the pain associated with it.
And so it's just kind of that fear of the possibility of experiencing the pain that you get with a bee sting. But honestly, I've got four kids. I can't quite remember if she's gotten bee stings or not.
(Cai)
but all she has to do is witness it and then it's the no way. Oh my gosh No way. I'm not I'm not gonna have that and there are various ways of dealing with that
(Beaven)
Well, that's perfect segue Cai I was going to next say, what are some effective strategies or techniques that we parents can use to support our kids who are struggling with fears or phobias?
Let's dive in.
(Cai)
There are various different techniques.. The CBT uses a technique called DARE, which is diffuse, allow, run towards, and engage. And that's basically, trying to sort of work out with the mind of acknowledging that you've got this fear and understanding what's going on and rationalizing with it and reasoning with it, which is fine to an extent.
But if you start trying to do that, when the red mists come down and there's a bee in the room or whatever, the unconscious mind's a bit, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, fight or flight. I'm going, I'm not listening. I can't hear anything. My instinct is survival here. So the cognitive skills go out of the window.
(Beaven)
Got it. So those are like beneficial, but not in a moment where the phobia or fear has come up outside of the moment when we're going to kind of maybe talk through, work through, rationalize when we're not already at that heightened state.
But when we're at that heightened state, when the phobia fear just shows up, something else would be more beneficial that you're going to recommend.
(Cai)
Exactly. the thing is, I use NLP, which is rather than talking to the cognitive bit, you'll be fine. You'll be okay. No, I won't. , we do what's called sort of, well, for kids, it's great. It's visualization. And there's actually with NLP, it's called a phobia model. And what you do is you act not.
again, not whilst you're sort of going through the actual problem. But it's prior to it and you sort of do it in your head and what you do is you picture a time or this thing happened to you. , and this is why I was just asking, but with your daughter. She might, you know, she might not remember, but there is that visceral feeling of, I know that movie in my head whenever it happens.
And what you encourage them to do is to get that movie, and we turn it to black and white, and then we run it backwards. And you keep on telling them to write, I want you to run it backwards. Okay, and it's right, go back to the beginning. And I want you to run it backwards. sort of two times the normal speed.
So it's, oh, do do do do do do do do do do do, right, okay. And I want you to run it backwards 25 times the normal speed. Because what they've got, they've got this loop of a movie. It's a bit like I I have a signature program called Changing Pictures.
And everything in our brain is stored in pictures. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to rewire the pictures and the movies that are running in our heads. So with this phobia model, you just keep on getting them to picture this, turn it black and white and sort of, move it backwards at varying speeds to the point that when they get to the movie again, they go, I can't quite find it.
It's gone all a bit jumbled. And that's when , you know, that's it. We've sort of worked our magic, but it's just finding pictures in the head because that's how. Our brain stores pictures, stores memories and phobias and fears and everything in our brain is stored as a big picture.
If I asked you what you had for breakfast, you would picture whatever you had for breakfast. You know, whether or not it's a cup of coffee or a, full fry or whatever it is. You wouldn't see a shopping list and you wouldn't hear, people sort of saying, don't forget the sausages. You just picture it.
And so that's how. NLP works is the fact that it changes the pictures and the association in your head, in their heads, but what also, is a sort of great way is for kids to start, thinking, reframing what's going on in their mind and going, right, okay, let's use bees, for example.
Well, I'm terrified of bees. Okay. Yeah, I get that. Because actually being stung by them, would be really quite painful in some instances, especially if you're allergic, blah, blah, blah. So, right, okay, here's this bee, but did you know that if a bee stings you, it dies? So it's not actually looking to sing you wasps are slightly different, but sometimes we don't mention that, but it's a matter, you a B is, tiny, and it's not out to cause any sort of angst.
So that's great. We need them on our planet. Gosh, we've, you know, we're losing them left, right and center. So they're really useful. They serve a really, really big purpose. So it's just reframing it and it's still good. Look at the size of me and a bees probably thinking, blip no human or whatever.
And you change it and you make it. It's slightly ridiculous sometimes, but also slightly more relevant. Any child that's scared of the dark, show them Monsters, Inc, because it just reframes it all.
And it makes them say, Oh, it's not so bad. And this isn't likely to happen. And, you know, and if the child is older and the statistically speaking, this isn't likely to happen, but it's reframing the brain for us to think more positively. And it's just making these pictures when you find the picture in your head of that phobia, then.
Make it darker, make it smaller, put it , sort of in a shoebox somewhere in your brain. Now, okay, what do you want to see? Well, instead of seeing a bee, stinging me, let's see a beautiful bee that is pollinating a sunflower, and look how beautiful, and make that more compelling, and then it goes along its merry way.
And, wow, look at the honey, and have you Did you know that bees are so blimmin intelligent? They do this bee dance, the way they communicate. And just make it all, you know, that's called reframing and just so allow them to make it a lot more positive so that they are not getting as focused on the negative sides of what's going on.
(Beaven)
So the reframing, that's a piece of the changing pictures. So first we're trying to basically distort the picture, move it backwards, turn it to black and white so that it is just kind of not a clear picture anymore. And now we're replacing it with a new picture, the one that is more focused on just looking at bees in a whole different way, using the bee example.
(Cai)
And the great thing about this is, we can do it when we're brushing our teeth, we can do this when we're going on the school run, we can do this when we're in line, we could, you know, all of this we can do.
(Beaven)
Is it helpful to actually look at some real pictures of
bees or videos of bees do their research?
(Cai)
That is increasing the exposure. I mean, I don't know, we've got a TV, daytime, sort of, TV program, and every so often, these, specialists come on and say, Oh, well, Natalie was terrified of spiders, now look at her because she's got a tarantula on her hand.
And that is just increasing the exposure, and it's just reframing the brain to acknowledge that these things aren't necessarily the threat that our brain needs. has convinced ourselves that it is. But that's all very well when you're sitting there tying your shoelaces, waiting for, hockey practice to start.
Oh, I've got five minutes. I can do that. But when you're actually going through it, when you can feel that, that hiccup thing. What I want people to know is the best thing rather than no, you're going to be fine. This is going to be off. You're going to be fine because the panic's beginning to set in is the knowledge that the trigger, whatever it is, has just just kicked in and to go right.
Okay. This is going to take two minutes because biologically what happens is the hormones are going through our body and it takes two minutes for the adrenaline, the cortisol and all the sort of, you know, fight or flight hormones. It takes two minutes for them to flood the body. Now, what usually happens is that we get ourselves into a panic and an anxiety attack.
So. The hormones keep on pumping, but what we do is write, okay, stop here. This is going to be over in two minutes if I put the brakes on. And the way we put the brakes on is by breath work. Because as I said, the mind, the fight or flight part doesn't understand.
You'll be fine. You'll be okay. Cause it's going, no, no, no, I'm going to get out of here. So what it understands is breath work, Google it, but I shall give you a very quick and easy one, it's called box breathing, where you breathe it, just easy if you put your hand on your heart, and you have one hand on your heart, one hand on your tummy, and it's taking belly breaths, so that none of the because that's hyperventilating, and that doesn't help, that makes you think, right, I've got to run away from this saber toothed tiger, so it's breathing very deeply, so you can feel your tummy, So, you know, your belly expanding and breathe in for four and hold it and then breathe out for four And I sort of liken it to a box.
So if you breathe in for four and pause and slowly breathe out for four and pause and you breathe in for four and pause and you breathe out and what happens here is that the you know the the brain sort of goes well they're not hyperventilating so hang on a minute is this a threat or it isn't it well I'll just be on I'll just be on my sort of guard and I'm and we because we're breathing slowly this is sort of releasing some of serotonin and the oxytocin, which are the feel good hormones.
And so what happens is that reversal of the adrenaline you've got to run and your body is sort of going, no, actually. We're breathing okay and so there's more oxygen getting into the body and everything begins to calm down and that breaks the anxiety cycle. So the first thing I would say is mentally if you just went, Oh my gosh, I'm about is put your hand on your heart, your hand on your belly and just go stop.
two minutes here. Stop. And if you do box breathing for two minutes, that is the language that the mind understands. The mind doesn't understand Spanish, Japanese, Russian, you name it. It doesn't understand that. It understands breath work. And that is how everything gets calmed down and it's reset and it's am I okay?
Is there a bee here? Or am I okay? You know, have I got to go into school? You're okay. This is not a saber toothed tiger. And that is the way that, you know, breathwork is, if you think you're about, you're in the middle of this, or you're just about to tip over the edge, breathwork is the way to slow it down.
You know, just shout to yourself inside your head, Stop. Stop. Let's do something about this. Let's take back control. Because that's the important thing. Because when we have anxiety and phobias, We feel like we're running,we're running scared and we don't have the control. And in fact, we do, we've got the control to stop that cycle.
So it doesn't go on and on and on and on. So that's the first thing. And then, you know, knowledge, how am I doing? Do you know, I can feel everything just calming down a bit. And that really helps.
(Beaven)
That's great. Really helpful and similar to the way in which I help parents, you know, co regulate and lead and teach some of these specific tools to their kids when they're experiencing those more generalized anxiety situations. For my two youngest, they both share this fear of, you know, getting sick, throwing up.
So when anxiety creeps in. They get the bubbles in the tummy, their brain goes, Oh my gosh, I might get throw up when they immediately go into this mode. So we've developed box breathing. One of their favorite things to try out. Great to kind of connect the dots in terms of like, this is going to help us manage our fears and phobias as well.
The same thing. Their brain, my youngest, I'm thinking is still thinking like, no, I'm just gonna get away from that B. Nope, I'm just not going to go outside at all. But actually getting that, like, actually, you know, it's the same kind of thing that you've experienced in the past in these
other
Instances.
(Cai)
it's breath work. And it's what, but it could be a different, you know, it could be sort of, well, with generalized anxiety, box breathing works really well, but I need something stronger. Oh, okay. Well, let's try color swap. So what you do is you go and you say, listen, I'm feeling, I'm feeling a bit.
Yeah. Well, okay. Where'd you feel it? Where is it? Well, it's in my chest and my, my throat and okay. What color is it? Well, it actually, it feels a bit sort of sludgy green. Okay. Well, Okay. How do you want to feel? I want to feel calm. I want to feel in control. I want to feel bright. Okay. You want to feel confident, calm, whatever.
What color would that be? Well, it might be pink actually. Now you come to mention it. Okay. Right. I want you to breathe in. pink. When you breathe out, breathe out that sludgy green. And so it keeps on going and then they can sort of picture and it gives them something to focus on as well. So, and they can feel it reducing.
So you, you say, I want you, you keep on breathing in this pink and that pink is replacing that sludgy green. And when you're breathing out, is there any more sludgy green? Yes. Right. We'll keep breathing out. Breathe in the pink. And where is it now? How big is it? Is it still in your, is it still in your throat and your chest?
Well, actually it's moved to my knee. Ah, you see, anxiety is a clever thing. Is it still, is it still sludgy green? No, it's a, no, not really. It's a sort of bluey color. Okay. Well, let's, let's go into, and so it's replacing. The bad color, in inverted commas, with the good color. What it is, it's still breathwork.
We get that. But it's a different way of doing it and it's a different way of focusing the brain, because, oh, now I've got to think, yeah, this is a really strong anxiety. So I think we need to bring in the colors here, bring in the heavy mob. And it's just giving, it's doing the same thing, but in a different way.
(Beaven)
I like that. And it's, it's a bit, I like that it's a bit more challenging, right? It's, it requires a bit more focus. So the brain is going to be less inclined to be like, Oh, but the B, but the B, and instead they're focusing on the colors.
(Cai)
And it's just keep on saying, you know, has that sludgy green gone? Is it dissolving? Is it getting smaller? So they have to, but what about that? Oh no, it's, it's still here. And what about no, and, and they sort of focus less on the external, what's going on in the external and more on the internal, which then calms everything down for them.
Yeah.
(Beaven)
I love it. Those are some great tools and very helpful. How can we help parents come up with some specific communication tips around? You know, how they're talking to their anxious kids, what would be things to say or not to say or really what might benefit a parent in their communication style.
(Cai)
As we have touched on none of this, calm down. You'll be fine. I mean, how many times you've been sung by a bee? I mean, this is right. Yeah. No, no, no, no. But
(Beaven)
Dismissive. There's nothing to worry about. Yes.
(Cai)
Imagine I was sort of sitting there saying to my husband, I've got a podcast interview and I'm quite nervous.
No, you're not. Excuse me. You know, it's and that's exactly what we're doing to our kids. No, you don't feel like that. And it's like, well, actually, I think I do. So , we need to validate feelings. We need to be sensitive to how they're feeling. Not overdramatizing it either. Provide the reassurance, but not excessively because otherwise, oh, you see, even mum thinks there's something wrong.
So, no, no, no, we need to, open communication. A lot of listening, because sometimes it's, oh God, here we go again. This is sort of, you know, , it's a matter of, okay, honey, right, sit down. What do you need from me? What do you need right now? I need you to close all the windows. Sweetheart, they are closed.
You're absolutely fine. So you can relax now. There's nothing in here. Talk to me. How can I support you? What's going on here? And it's just listening to what they have to say, listening to, , you know, sort of what their fears are and, and however irrational they are. Yes, gradual exposure does work to some extent, you know, sort of sometimes, if we talk about school refusal, oh, I, I'm so anxious, school avoidance, I can't go in, I can't go in.
It's okay, we'll listen. Will you come with me in the car to collect your sister from school? Do I have to go in? No, you could just sit in the car and we'll collect her from school and then that's fine. Okay, I can do that. And then it's just helping them realize that school is not as scary as it is. And it could be, I'll tell you what.
What are your good days at school? What's your good timetable? Well, I can't stand Wednesdays. Right, well, we won't go in, you won't go in on Wednesdays for a while. Well, Thursdays are quite fun because, you know, I've got art or I've got history and I love that. So, it's okay. Well, listen, let's make a deal.
Would you be able to think about going into school for a couple of hours and then I'll be there to collect you. Yeah, I think I can do that. So that's the gradual exposure and it's the gradual exposure, you know, like bees, as you said, sort of showing pictures and videos and stuff. So it's helping the mind understand that when we think of this thing, what it tends to do is going, it's a saber tooth tiger and, and blows it out of all proportion.
So we are trying to introduce it gently to go. Well, not every aspect of school is scary. You know, you've just done history and that was really cool. You've just done, you know, and, Oh, okay, so you wanted to stay over lunch as well to speak to your friends even better. So it's helping them understand that not every aspect of what they're going through is rubbish.
Now, parents take this with the love that it is intended, but a lot of these things are learnt behaviours. So, a bit like, mum can't stand spiders, child has learnt how to have a phobia of spiders as well. So, the thing is that when mum sees a spider, none of this, ah, ah, because that is exactly the same behaviour that your child , is witnessing.
So, we have to model. Our own coping strategies so that the kids understand that it's not. that terrifying after all. Sort of that, helps. Encouraging bravery. Oh my God, , you drove to school with me today and you didn't have a hissy fit. That's really cool. Let's go home now. And, not sort of, well, now you're here, it's really safe.
Will you please go in? No, no, no. You've got to keep your side of the bargain so that they know that they're getting there. It's, it's giving them the baby steps to do.
(Beaven)
And building trust along the way. Yeah.
(Cai)
totally, totally. Building a calm environment. making them feel reassured. Home needs to be their safe space, especially.
Because not every phobia is bees. It could be phobia of public speaking. It could be phobia of going outside. It could be they'd rather just sit in a heap on the sofa and watch Netflix or whatever it is. So it's creating, a safe environment, but all the while teaching them coping skills.
So it was a bit like, come on, should we do that visualization? Because that was quite fun. And what would your picture look like? And it could be even something like, I don't know, kids that are afraid of snakes and it's, well, Let's put a sombrero on the snake. Why don't we do that?
, or they're afraid of dogs. Let's put a clown nose on the dog. And how does that, and it's just helping them sort of create a more positive, less scary outlook. And, you can be as fun and playful with it as you like, but it's, sort of confronting the issue with rather than just dismissing it or sort of something like that.
You might have to seek professional help. , you know, you talk about, phobia of being sick. I can't even remember what it is, but there's a special name for it. It's a phobia.
(Beaven)
The metaphobia.
(Cai)
Thank you
(Beaven)
I'm familiar because it's in our household.
(Cai)
Yeah, exactly. Now, this is my changing pictures technique helps kids with this. I've had a number of clients and it is very debilitating.
And that's the thing is the fact that they might have witnessed someone choking or they might have, you know, the smell of someone being saying, Oh my God, I couldn't possibly cope with that. And so what we do is I help them create pictures and it's, well, what, what was that picture like, and tell me, you know, it near or far?
Is it bright or dim? Are you inside or outside the picture? And we find that picture it's great because it's fun without sort of saying, tell me how you feel and was it scary? And, sort of disassociating from it. And then we go, well, how do you want to feel?
You know, well, when I eat crisps, It doesn't bother me that some kids worry that they might choke or other kids sort of think that if they're eating lunch in public or other kids feel that, you know, if I'm speaking and even that I get that is the funny thing. I get that feeling in my stomach so I automatically think nausea.
And so what we're trying to do is we're trying to disassociate from that feeling, and we go right well let's create a picture where you're feeling when this thing happens, I now feel. Okay. And so, you know, I can sort of help support them what one kid wouldn't go out because, he was 17, refused to go out, terrified of choking on his beer or, you know, being sick over his best mate for whatever reason.
So after doing this changing pictures, he went to some, you know, I sort of said, how did it all go? I went out with my mates and there were 2000 people in this arena. And I went, that's what we need to do. We need to give our kids the ability and the control to. Allow them to start living life again, rather than permanently being on the lookout of this awful, awful saber toothed tiger that is interfering, with the way that they're, living their lives.
But, I think that the main thing is love, support and compassion. And I know we get fatigued about it, I hear you, because it's, oh God, not this again. But I think the thing is that we need to be there to support our kids, but not enable, not enable the behavior. And I think that's, that's the, that's hard.
It's tricky. I do get it. Yeah.
(Beaven)
That's, but that's really helpful because there's a ways in which that we can kind of help our children avoid. The things that are associated with the fears and phobias. And there may be a time and a place for that. But then ultimately our, our goal is to help our kids face them and to come up with strategies to help our children overcome them.
So they don't hold them back from enjoying all the good things in life they want to be involved in. So don't over, yeah, over compromise, over support.
(Cai)
And I think the thing is, is normalising it all, and when they sort of go, you know, they say, oh, and, and I've got, and you go, do you know what? You're not the only one. You know, there is a name for this. I mean, there's things, there's phobias of buttons and cheese and you name it. There's phobias about everything.
And Ron goes, oh, you're batty or bonkers. It's, oh, no, no, no, no, you're quite right. Let's go and look up. There is a word for this. You're not the only person. But there are a lot of other people that don't have this phobia. So let's see if we can get you to a place where it no longer bothers you. And it's giving them the information, validating their feelings, encouraging them to talk about it and just encourage problem solving.
Well, okay, come on then. I, I've asked you what you need from me. What would support you in doing this? How would, how would it, make it better? And it's, well, avoiding it altogether. Yeah, but that's not going to help you in the long run. So what do you think is, would be a solution that would work for you?
And it's giving your child back the control because they feel out of control and they panic. And so we need to be able to help them sort of unpick it a bit themselves. And if that means running the movie backwards and forwards, if that means changing it to black and white from color, if that means making it small, if that means putting a clown hat on or whatever it is.
whatever works for them. I mean, so many people who have, public speaking, you know, they sort of say, Oh, what really works with me is someone said, just picture everyone sitting there in their underwear. Well, I mean, batty, if that works for you, knock yourself out, you know, and it's just finding ways for people to go.
Oh, I think I can cope with this now. I've got, you know, and it's encouraging those coping strategies. And if one doesn't work, you give them another and, you know, just give them little tasks. To build up that resilience against what is very often an irrational fear.
(Beaven)
That is so helpful. Wow. Cai, there has been so many tips and strategies that you have thrown into this one podcast episode. I am so grateful that you came and shared this. I have so many things I'm going to be trying with my kids who have these specific fears and phobias. Before we wrap up, I always love asking my guests to share something from their own personal experience that they love to do with their family to connect to one another.
(Cai) Yeah.
(Beaven)
Favorite thing that you and your family have done either when they were growing up or now to connect to each other.
(Cai)
Always. Two things really. One is family is big on my list. It's the most important thing for me. We're a very big family and we're eclectic mix of lots of different people. And what I try and do is get us all together as often as possible. I remember one time my son was He was about seven or eight and he was really concerned, a bit like a fear or a phobia, what will people think of me that I'm not very good at sport and what am I, you know, cause he, he had a cousin that was brilliant.
And Jack was sort of saying, well, I don't want to join in and I don't want to do this. And we had a, Big family lunch and they all went to sort of play football. And he came back and he was just pleased as punch. And I sort of said, what went on there? And he went, Oh, Uncle Mark was brilliant.
And Uncle Mark just sussed out that Jack needed a little bit of support. , I think the thing is when you're with family, we all boost each other. And, you know, some people are slightly quieter than others and other people, I think the more. I feel with our lot that we benefit so much more with some shared experiences.
So we try and do, , big family get togethers, you know, nothing formal, but just a bit of fun. And everyone just sort of gets thrown into the mix, which is lovely. And there's no judgment with our family. And the other one is, , my kids are now grown up and you know, sort of have their own lives, but if I can get them on a.
Then that's always a good one. It's a great excuse to get us all together because it's a shared experience and it's just a bit of fun. So we try and do that. As I was gonna say, as much as possible. If we're lucky, it's once a year, but yeah, it's fun.
(Beaven)
connecting on the ski hill and ski vacations. I love that. , so Cai, I would love to give you the opportunity to share with listeners how they can learn more from you, how they can follow you, how they can take advantage of the wonderful support and, , offerings that you have at your business.
Could you share those with us?
(Cai) yeah, sure. I am, Cai Graham, and I'll spell that C-A-I-G-R-A-H-A-M, so it's Cai graham.com is my website. You can go and get, , the chapter one of my anxiety book, which is called Fearless and Free. , I should have it here, so for those that are watching. That is an anxiety book for, , parents and kids.
So it gives you both, different aspects and sort of different viewpoints. But I have mentioned, so you can find sort of all that on my website and Instagram and Facebook, , at Cai Graham. So
(Beaven)
I'll put all those links in the show notes so people can easily find you
(Cai)
And now we're recording this, this is sort of, , in the springtime of 2024, I am just about to launch, a changing pictures course, which is going to be, it's a bit like, it's changing those pictures in your head, it's finding that thing that you don't want to be true any longer, and making a, new compelling picture, so that, that's going to come out sort of just after Easter, so, join me on Instagram and Facebook and you'll see all that news coming through, or it'll be on my website, caigraham.com.
so that'll be a course where people are able to, rather than having to, come and work with myself or other coaches who do NLP, you can have all those tools yourself. So to help you picture yourself out of anxiety.
(Beaven)
Wonderful. Some of the strategies you shared with us, the parents are like, this is going to work for me and my family. I want to give it a shot. They should sign up for your course and learn more about how they can use this changing pictures strategy to help their kids, particularly our kids who struggle with maybe anxiety, fears, and phobias.
Thank you so much again Cai, for joining us on the podcast. Really appreciate it.
Cai)
So lovely to be here. Thank you.
